The Emptiness of Signification in Shakespeare’s “The Winter’s Tale” (Part 1)

0:11 Erin: When King Leontes accuses his pregnant wife of adultery, the nobleman Antigonus assumes that Leontes has been abused by some putter-on. In other words, some Iago like villain has been putting malevolent ideas into his head. In fact, Leontes is the father of his own misconceptions, just as he is the father of his wife's children. But unlike his children, his ideas might be said to have no mother. They lack corroboration, which is to say collaboration with a source outside himself. How then do we account for the seemingly spontaneous generation of his thoughts?

How can false apprehensions arise out of nothing? And what price must one pay for bearing these misconceptions, these nothings, into the world? In this episode, the first part of a multi part discussion, we'll be talking about one of Shakespeare's last plays, the Winter's Tale. This is Erin O'Luanaigh, this is Wes Alwan, and you're listening to Subtext. Okay, Wes, So the Winter's Tale is Shakespeare's possibly his second to last play, is that right?

1:15 Wes: Or third to last? I was looking at a chronology. So it's after Cymbeline, supposedly, and before the Tempest, Henry VIII and two noble kinsmen. So okay, 1610 or 1611, is that right?

1:31 Erin: Yes. So, but really his second to last great play, I'd argue, right? His penultimate great play, sure. So it's classified as a romance. And this question of genre is one that's a bit interesting, especially because this play is playing so consciously with generic crossover, with taking two genres and putting them together, something we'll probably talk about later when we get to Acts 4 and 5, when the play becomes something quite different. But in romance we have a mixture, I think, of comedy and tragedy, of comic and tragic registers. The question of what genre this actually is, or whether or not it's useful to call something a romance, is an interesting one.

But in general they seem to be characterized by a loose episodic structure. There are elements of fantasy or improbability, or even the supernatural that run through romance. Those listeners who are familiar with our episode on the Tempest will remember that there's explicit invocation of the gods and supernatural creatures, right, like Ariel, that are running around. Caliban has some elements of the supernatural in him, and there's this sort of halfway between the comic and tragic that occurs. So tragedy, which is never quite fully tragic and with a sort of generous smattering of comic relief even within the tragedy, which we can argue, I suppose, in these first three acts, if there are comic moments, I think there are quite a few of them.

So there are things that are irrevocable. Time passes, people do die. But then the comedy also works itself out of the ingredients that are already in place within the tragedy. So the action is transposed in this particular play from one generation to the next. And the movement from tragedy to comedy, I think, has a lot to do with this displacement by way of the generation. So there's a regeneration into comedy, just as there's a regeneration with these younger people now coming of age and becoming interested in marriage and starting their own lives, their own history together.

So there's. That's something about, I suppose, about romance in general, but also this play in particular, and the way that it blends these episodes, as I said, of fantasy, of the supernatural, also of both comedy and tragedy wedded together or interspersed with each other.

4:11 Wes: Yeah, I really like the way you put that when you say transposition of the action into the next generation. So it starts out on the trajectory of the tragic. And maybe there's some tragic element like the death of Mamilius or in the Tempest. It looks like it's gonna be. It looks like Prospero is gonna be merely getting revenge. But then we get, in the end, a comedy in which some young people are, I want to say, cobbled together in a relationship. You get the redemption in the union of the younger generation, which undoes a rift in the older generation. And I hadn't thought about it in terms of the phrase, the way you had put it exactly, this transposition into the next generation.

5:05 Erin: Well, there's something, too, I think, about. And this is another element of romance which I should have mentioned earlier, which is this travel element. Right. The Tempest has this as well. Even though most of the. Most of the action is just located in one place. There's this idea of this huge map over which these events are taking place. So there's huge spaces traversed. It's very peripatetic. Right. We have Sicilia and Bohemia having a sea coast. So there's something fantastical inherent in that kind of imaginary space. But this transposition, I think, between one generation to the next is repeated in this idea of these two spaces that you're.

That we're toggling back and forth between, which represent. They'll represent a change in the genre of the play. When we go from Sicilia, which is sort of dour and extremely regal and courtly and regimented, and we go to Bohemia, which is a place occupied by shepherds and clowns and. And all of these fun people. And it's much more pastoral and it has these fantastical elements to it in a way that Cecilia doesn't. And so this kind of transposition into a different environment, a different frame of mind, I think is also repeated in this generational.

This regeneration. Right. In which we have a relationship which has failed. The relationship between Leontes and Hermione literally renewing itself in this new place with this next group of young people.

6:37 Wes: Yeah, it has a desert, it has a seacoast, it has bears, which Ben Jonson really criticized him for that. And of course, yes, the pursued by bear. Famous criticism. What is the bear for? I read that it may have been just that they happen to have a bear available and available. And so Shakespeare put that in the play. And I thought it really misses the point to criticize something like that, because this is really, first and foremost about entertainment. It's sublime entertainment. But if you have a bear, you're going to use the bear. I mean, that's the governing principle of the art at that point. But he's taking these fantastic elements from Robert Greene's Pandosto. So although he reverses. Is that how you pronounce it?

7:23 Erin: Yeah, Pandosto.

7:25 Wes: Pandosto. Robert Greene, by the way, the guy who had accused Shakespeare of plagiarism, apparently said, referred to Shakespeare as that upstart crow beautified in our feathers. Which is taken. It doesn't mention Shakespeare by name, but it's taken to be a reference to Shakespeare. And here Shakespeare is essentially adapting a story by Robert Greene. So including Bohemia, which is basically part of the Czech Republic, doesn't have a desert, obviously doesn't have a coast. And yet in this fantasy it does. And not only that, it looks like the English countryside really is what this second setting for the play seems to be.

8:13 Erin: I take the bear more than anything to be a pun. Maybe I'm being a little silly in that way, but. Right. But there's so much emphasis in these first three acts on, obviously on the pregnancy of Hermione and on people having these misconceptions or these conceptions, people bearing ideas. Antigonus, when he's overtaken by the bear, it seems to be this personification almost, or that's not the right word for an animal, but I can't think of the proper word, but that this is the last gasp of this violent idea that's taken root in Leonti's mind and which has killed, arguably killed at least two people.

And then finally, Antigonus in this last moment, which is then very quickly transposed into a comedic moment. Right? But Antigonus is the last person, it seems, who believes Leontes story. One of the things, maybe that marks Antigonus for death is the fact that he does believe it still. Right. Camillo gets away in order to avoid killing off Polixenes, but Antigonus leaves with the baby on this evil errand that he's agreed to do for Leontes before he can hear from the oracle that it's all bunk, that Leontes suspicions of Hermione are garbage. And so in doing this evil deed of leaving Perdita to die by exposure, he's just following orders, of course, right.

But he gets his comeuppance in the form of a bear, kind of a born idea that's swallows him up. Maybe I'm a.

9:52 Wes: What idea?

9:53 Erin: A born idea. An idea born out that he's carried this idea, personified by Perdita, across the oceans that seem to separate Sicily and Bohemia. And then when she's deposited, born again into this new place, he's then eaten by the bear, the last vestiges of this idea.

10:15 Wes: That's great. In a way, it's. Again, I hadn't thought of it this way. I mean, I certainly appreciated the comedy of the moment and I think it's already comical, him running out with a bear running after him, even before the son of the shepherd, the clown, cracks some funny. Makes some funny remarks about it. But you're making me think of this as. This is an interesting segue from the tragic to the comic. It's almost a decomposition of the tragic. Here's a terrible violent act that actually is played for laughs. So I like that. I like that a lot. Shall we start into act one?

11:00 Erin: Yeah, let's rewind and see how we get to Bohemia first place.

11:05 Wes: Yeah. So I. In a way, this play is about, obviously about jealousy. And there's a great psychology, I think, to the first act and to the transition, the quick transition in the mind of Leontes into the mental state of jealousy, although that. That itself has also been criticized. But I think it's done expertly and. And part of the. What I think is so expert about it is that the play actually grounds itself in a reflection of. About the concept of gratitude and hospitality. And I thought, surely other people have thought about this, right? They had.

The secondary literature doesn't just focus on jealousy. And of course, I did a quick search. I didn't read anything, but, yeah, there's a million papers written on hospitality and Gratitude and the Winner's Tale. But I think there's also an interesting relation between. There's an interesting transition from the question of hospitality to jealousy. But in any case, the play begins with a scene between Camilo and Archidamus in which there's this worry over whether the hospitality of the Sicilians can actually be returned when Leontes visits Bohemia.

So Archidamus suggests that instead of living up to that challenge. Right, because it can't be lived up to, the hospitality they've received in Sicily is so great that there's no recompense for that. So instead he says, we will give you sleepy drinks. That your senses unintelligent of our insufficience may, though they cannot praise us as little, accuse us. And then the first scene sets up some other stuff, including the idea that Polixenes and Leontes have this unalterable affection between them and that Mamillius is a gentleman of great promise that everyone wants to see become a man.

But I was taken by this early emphasis on the concept of hospitality, which also is how things play out in the beginning of the second scene. I don't know what you made of that.

13:28 Erin: Yeah, this first scene, I love the fact that we're talking about this because it's something that might easily be skipped over and yet I think it's. It has all the themes of the play in it in microcosm. So we have all these things that you're describing, this question of hospitality. In fact, I was joking with. I was joking with someone the other day that you could take Leonti's jealousy or his insanity as just evidence of the fact that this is a play about guests that have stayed too long, they've been there for nine months and people start to go crazy. And that's the way it goes.

14:03 Wes: That's what happens. Yeah.

14:04 Erin: Right. But we have.

14:05 Wes: Especially when you're leaving right at the nine month mark, it's very suspicious.

14:10 Erin: Well, there's a lot of correlation equals causation here.

14:12 Wes: I mean.

14:13 Erin: Oh, yeah, we can immediately see.

14:15 Wes: I'm not so sure. They didn't actually get together.

14:18 Erin: No way. Really?

14:19 Wes: Based on the way it's portrayed.

14:20 Erin: Yeah. Well, it's pretty. Yeah. Their language is pretty. Polixenes and Hermione are speaking almost exclusively in sexual metaphors with each other. But prior to that. Yeah. So we have Archidamus as representative of Bohemia and Camillo as representative of Sicilia. So we already have this kind of metonymic function happening here in which these two men are each representing their two kingdoms. As parts of the aristocracy, I believe, and as proxies for their kings. And then they refer to their kings as Bohemia and Sicilia. A further metonymic function, metonymic kind of distancing or replacement of these men with their countries.

And yet we learn that Bohemia hasn't really been in Bohemia for quite a while. Right. And then we understand that this is a friendship which, though it's extremely close, has been carried out by proxy by gifts and letters and other things which have this kind of replacement function that metonymy has. So there's something up here, right? There's. I see this as prefiguring something as late as Hermione's statue or. Which. I know I'm really getting ahead of myself here, or the fact that.

15:37 Wes: Spoiler alert, spoiler alert.

15:39 Erin: Or Florizel replacing Mamilius. We also have this idea that Mamilius isn't going to exist very soon after this scene. Already within this scene, Archidamus is already projecting what would happen if the king had no son. At the end of this scene, the sleepy drinks we know are going to come up later. This is potentially where Camillo gets the idea in the substance scene to poison Polixenes. It's lent to him by Archidamus in this scene. It's also. I mean, Leontes isn't here to listen to this, but this idea of these sleepy drinks, which is such an odd thing that it really does stick in our minds, so it stands out.

We remember it when we get to Leontes talking about the drink poisoned by the spider in his famous speech. And then what else could I say about this? Oh, God, the best thing of all, the affection which cannot choose but branch. Now, this doubling, this duplicity within the language, not a conscious duplicity on Camillo's part, but when he talks about the affection that Leontes and Polixenes have for each other. There's this great word branch they had. Here's.

16:46 Wes: They were trained together in their childhoods and there rooted betwixt them then, such an affection which cannot choose but branch.

16:53 Erin: Now, yeah, so we have this.

16:54 Wes: So the metaphor is that it will flourish, it will come into actuality. Right, because they've been having interchanges through gifts and letters. But the double meaning there is that the branching will represent an extension of the affection, say to Leontes to Hermione. Right, from Leontes to Hermione. Or that there'll be a split, that there will actually be a rift.

17:26 Erin: Exactly. And this flowering idea too, within branching, or this flourishing flowering, it's glossed in my notes, in my edition, rather as flourish, as in yours. Yeah. So this idea of the thing that flowers, that produces heirs and children, etc. Is also splitting at the same time. In order to have a child, you split yourself. And of course, there's also this idea of the horns, the cuckold's horns, inherent, I think, in the branching imagery too. So, you know, in the language here. The language is so tortured. I think in this whole play it's very difficult. It's much more thorny, I think, than most other Shakespeare plays. And this scene is no exception to that. And I think that just this idea of branching as having this. This oxymoronic meaning is something that'll be played upon really heavily in the subsequent scene and in the rantings and ravings of Leontes.

18:27 Wes: Yeah. It's worth emphasizing your point about the syntax of the play, that this is the way Shakespeare wrote in later life. In the Tempest and Cymbeline, for instance, are very similar, very difficult to understand. It does loosen up a little bit as the play goes on, but in the first act, definitely this very tortured syntax. It's amazing how different Shakespeare can be from play to play because it's quite unlike earlier plays. And it is poetically very beautiful, in my opinion. But it takes some deciphering. There's almost like a riddle like or puzzle like aspect to it.

It forces you to run over the. If you're a reader, to. To go over it again and puzzle it out. And it's clear when you see it performed, obviously because of. Because of context, but. But still, it really requires a lot of mental capacity of the audience, I think. Or it requires some mental. Some mental exertion. But, yeah, I think this is. You're right. This first scene really does set up everything thematically. I had the same reaction as you. And when I first read this, and this is the second time I've read the play, it was the kind of thing you gloss over.

Okay, here's some introductory exposition, right? No, much more is going on there. It's a thematic introduction as well, and some ingenious parts, so. Including this idea of wanting Mamilius to be. Wanting to see him born. And then the joke. So that went on crutches ere he was born. Desire yet their life to see him a man. And then Archidamus says, would they else be content to die, Camilla? Yes, if there were no other excuse why they should desire to live. Archidamus. If the king had no son, they would desire to live on crutches. Till he had one.

He may be foreshadowing. I thought maybe you pointed to this as a foreshadowing of the loss of Mimilius and also foreshadowing his replacement by Florizel.

20:48 Erin: Definitely. There's even something in this that reminds me now of the wording of the oracle, Right. This idea that she's not going to recover what's been lost until he gets his daughter back. This is a sort of twisting of that or a parody of that. Like this is, you know, oh, if the king were to have lost a son, then they would want to keep living until he got one back. You know, there's a similarity to that oracular speech, just as this scene, I think, mirrors. That is their name, Cleomenes. Cleomenes and Dion are another two, another pair of men who have a similar expository role in a couple of the bears of the.

21:33 Wes: Of the oracle.

21:34 Erin: Right, right. And. And so it would make sense that this scene would mirror that one. Another scene, which we think is something that you can pass over, but which has some interesting resonances and sets up some themes which are really important. So it makes sense that the oracular language that those two Cleomenes and Dion are bearing in that scene would be prefigured by. By this one. But let's get into. I mean, right. Right from the start. As soon as in Act 1, Scene 2, when all the major players come in and Polixenes starts talking, he just becomes.

22:10 Wes: Yeah, I think it's worth reading that. That first speech, if you want to read it.

22:15 Erin: Sure. This is Polixenes, right at Act 1, Scene 2, Line 1 9. Changes of the watery star hath been the shepherd's note. Since we have left our throne without a burden, Time as long again would be filled up, my brother, with our thanks. And yet we should for perpetuity go hence in debt. And therefore, like a cipher, yet standing in rich place, I multiply with one. We thank you many thousands more that go before it.

22:39 Wes: Okay, so this is wonderful.

22:41 Erin: Yeah, it's awesome.

22:43 Wes: Wonderful speech. And among the deciphering I had to do was looking up the word cipher and trying to figure out what does this mean? And it sounds like, to my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, what he's saying with this cipher speech is that a cipher is like a zero being added to a number to multiply it, right? So 10 becomes 100 becomes 1000. The cipher are the zeros. This is an idea that comes up in Shakespeare a few times. He likes this idea of a nothing that is creating a something or multiplying a something. And in this case, it's used to highlight the fact that there's this interesting asymmetry between hospitality and gratitude, where hospitality is a.

It's a. It's concrete, it's physical, right? You're providing people with food and shelter, sustenance. And what is gratitude in return? How are you repaying that debt? You repay it to some extent with your company. You repay it to some extent with your gratitude. But these are ineffable things, and they are, in general, mental or social phenomena. It's not like giving someone food. And so that is the asymmetry with which Polixenes begins the play saying that though standing in rich place, which I think so, you can read that in two ways. He's standing in this place in which he's received all this hospitality.

But also the zero, the cipher, and its place in the number, in some sense is standing in a rich place. But all he can do is keep multiplying these thank yous, like adding zeros onto a number, and it's meaningless. It will never amount to a repayment of the debt of hospitality. Am I reading that right?

24:54 Erin: I think so. I think that's great. I hadn't considered this. I love this distinction you're drawing between the physicalness of hospitality and the ineffability of gratitude. I love it. So what does that mean about this debt between them? How is this, then? How do we square this then? Is this really a debt that is lingering in the mind of Leontes? Is Leontes actually quite as I think your argument here is suggesting to me, Leontes is then feeling this debt rather keenly and feels he's been taken advantage of, maybe in more ways than one. Is that where you think this doubt of. This doubt is originating? In the debt of Polixenes?

25:39 Wes: I think maybe at some unconscious level, that's true. And you pointed to the fact that guests can overstay their welcome. And if someone hasn't overstayed their welcome at nine months, then I don't know, they must be an extra special guest. I realize this is olden times and they've traveled very far, and time works differently back then, but still, I think we will see clues in Leonte's kind of obtuse reactions to what Polixenes is saying. I think he's not quite tuned in to the emotional reality of what's unfolding at this point. And I think he may be irritable about the overstaying of A guest or maybe, but probably not consciously.

But there are other subtle things that I think happen to stimulate the jealousy as well. And some of it is the. We can go over that as we keep talking. I think it's worth pointing out each thing. And a lot of it does have to do with the behavior of Polixenes and Hermione. But in this case something is off, I think. And that's what Polixenes is pointing to. He's pointing to a very general truth too. It's not just that gratitude is ineffable in response to hospitality, but in general, mental states and social phenomena can pay off concrete physical reality adequately in ways that they are meant to.

And then that goes even for various types of social phenomena. And we'll get more into this as we go along. But honor, for instance, can't repay love, even though it's often meant to. And in fact, this is a case of honor, you know, gratitude. Giving gratitude, in a way is like honoring and recognizing and respecting something, respecting someone for something they've done. But giving people food and shelter is more. Is better described as love, I think. And honor can't actually repay love. But I think you're right, you're pointing to the fact that, or I think you are, that there's already something off here.

And Publicity's speech reveals that he's sensitive to that. He's reacting to something that we haven't seen on camera, so to speak, happened off camera. Something's already happened that. That has put things off. And this speech sets things in motion, let's put it that way. It's a very small thing, but this reflection by Polixenes sets everything in motion towards Leonte's insanity, even though it's just him trying to do. In a way it looks like a nicety, right? It looks like politeness. It looks like just people doing the usual thing. But there's a darker undercurrent.

28:33 Erin: Well, I really like what you say about Leontes not being quite tuned in. I know you took it in a slightly different direction, but I'll borrow that phrase and say that it seems that he's hearing things almost out of their own context, that he's then interpreting for his own ends. Right. So Polixenes is arguably putting these ideas in Leontes head by using the language that he uses. But Polixenes is pointing out that he's been there for nine months and standing next to Leontes nine months pregnant wife. So Leonti's suspicious, Right?

29:09 Wes: Right. And so I can't repay your debt But I did leave you a child.

29:14 Erin: Well, so Leontes is not hearing that. Oh, Polixenes is saying, oh, I've overstayed my welcome, blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, maybe he is hearing that, but he's hearing, like, oh, nine months he's been here, and then he's hearing that Polixenes is a cipher. I mean, maybe this is suggestive to him that he's, you know, since Leontes is making signs out of things that are not signs, that he's making a code out of things that aren't coded. And here Polixenes is saying he's a cipher. Right. To be figured out. Leontes is reading this as, oh, he has a secret, he's doing something wrong.

And then Polixenes himself puts this idea of cuckoldry into Leontes head in the same way that maybe Archidamus in the previous scene puts the idea of the sleepy drink into the head of Camillo. You know, things are contagion as something that's so often used as a metaphor here. There's lots of sticky ideas. And Polixenes is concerned that he's left his throne without a burden. Another image of pregnancy. And he says that he fears what may chance or breed upon his absence, which is of course itself an image of cuckoldry. Something bred in one's absence can't be fathered by you if you're not there to father it.

So. So it's like gulliones, as you're suggesting, I think is he's hearing the words and these are just giving him lots of ideas out of nothing. He's multiplying them like a cipher into that. Which Polixenes surely doesn't mean, but which is so suggestive in isolation.

30:54 Wes: Yeah. And in a way, Polixenes takes up that theme of the mental versus the concrete. So I think he takes up. He keeps extending the theme in his next speech. So Leontes, the thing that I was thinking of as obtuse, Leontes just says after that long speech by Polixenesis, stay your thanks a while and pay them when you part. Which is an odd thing to say to someone who has just said, I'm accruing this enormous debt by staying and it can't be repaid, and thanks aren't good enough. Thanks will never repay them. Leontes breezes over that. Later on, Hermione will accuse him of being too cold in his entreaties.

He's not doing a good job of actually trying to persuade Polixenes to stay. And I think she's right. He's not actually trying to get him to stay, but until he calls Hermione. Tongue tied. But in Polixenes speech, I guess I'll read the whole thing, sir. That's tomorrow. I am questioned by my fears of what may chance or breed upon our absence that may blow no sneeping winds at home to make us say this is put forth too truly. Besides, I have stayed to tire your royalty. It took me a while to figure out that the that and the that may blow refers back to fears.

So he's doing a number of things here. He's giving us a number of things that worry him. So there's what may happen in his kingdom in his absence. And then there's this idea that his fears may actually cause things, bad things to happen at home. So the fears that may blow no sneeping so cold winds at home and make us say, this was put forth too truly. Meaning I hope that by having the thought, it doesn't make it come true. So you get a little bit of the omnipotence of thought there. A worry about mind actually having this effect on reality. So in the first speech, we get the idea that mental states can't ever compensate concrete reality.

And in the second speech, we get the idea that what if they do. What if they do have an effect? So it's a little bit of superstition, or what psychoanalysts would call omnipotence of thought. And then there's the idea that he's just tiring Polixenes out. He's being a burden. He's being in trouble. So those are the three elements that he's using to excuse himself.

33:37 Erin: I love that. I thought that last line, though, was his admission of guilt. He's saying, I've stayed to tire out your wife. So.

33:47 Wes: Look, man, I'm tired of having sex with your wife. This has been nine months of this.

33:56 Erin: Yeah. This magical thing.

33:58 Wes: I'm not your boy toy.

34:01 Erin: I have feelings.

34:04 Wes: I know I'm hot. I know I go around without a shirt on most of the time and I have a six pack, but.

34:12 Erin: Oh, that's too funny. No. But, yeah. This idea that you're pointing to of magical thinking. I did not read that properly. I didn't realize that's what he was implying. And of course, that's the most interesting part of this whole thing to me. And this idea that in this economy, this gratitude economy, of course, grace is a form of magical thinking, arguably as well. Right. The note of grace that will be sounded by hermione shortly, I think, also figures into this. So I don't want to get ahead of myself, but the two of them go on a little bit after this about tongues and speech, to the point that you pointed to where Hermione accuses Leontes of being too cold in his entreaties.

But we have from Polixenes, there is no tongue that moves none in the world so soon as yours could win me. Of course, silence is always maybe a little scary in. I mean, certainly the concept of silence can be a little bit scary in a play. We need words to fill up the space, the time. But also, of course, we know that silence is confusing and it can be as much of a cipher as anything that's explicitly said. And we know from Cordelia, Right, that silence can be taken the wrong way. It can be dangerous in Shakespeare's mind. So there's this idea of speech, of needing speech to move someone, to convince someone.

And I'm just immediately put in mind of Lear and of Cordelia needing to convince someone to stay, and then Hermione's silence, both as. Both as a sign, maybe of a Cordelia like virtue, but also of being something dangerous that can be interpreted any way that you want to interpret it. So there's the demand for speech to. Yeah, to produce something from within yourself that is itself nothing. Right. That's just air.

36:02 Wes: Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. The nothing is always a stand in for consciousness or mental states or what's interior to the person, or what goes in it, what is distinguished from concrete physical reality, or however you want to put it. And so thanks belong in that. Thanks and gratitude belong in that realm. But you're pointing to something, I think, that is very important, which is that it seems like Leontes has already become suspicious now at this point when he asks his wife if she's tongue tied. So Polixenes has already set this up by saying there is no tongue that moves, none in the world that basically could win him.

And obviously Leontes is riffing off of that unknowingly, in the way we do in speech. And this is what I think is part of what's so psychologically wonderful about this first act, is having that little remark and the use of a word like tongue, which is quite suggestive sexually, and Leontes cottoning onto that and somehow joining that to the idea of his wife's silence, which, as you point out, can be taken as something suspicious. But how is he going to try and get rid of his suspicion? He's going to invite her to try to get this guy to stay. There's a lot of different dynamics here.

Not only is he doing that, he's challenging her to. He's setting up a competition between them. Well, I couldn't get him to stay, so maybe you can. And there's a few different ways in which that can go really wrong. He could get upset because she turns out to be a much more persuasive and better spoken person than him and much more tuned in to the emotional reality. And so that's a. And then the next thing is, if she does win Polix knees over, this is Leonte's childhood friend, someone he's supposed to be very close to. And there's almost even kind of a homoerotic suggestions there.

And so he could end up being jealous of. If she does get Polixenes to say, he could be jealous of that. Right. He could be jealous in the other direction. Or he could interpret her ability to persuade Polixenes to stay as evidence of an affair, which is what happens. But probably all three of those things are happening. He feels aggrieved that he feels rejected by Polixenes in favor of Hermione and rejected by her in favor of Polixenes, and then also just shown up for his lack of rhetorical skill. It's remarkable that the very sharp distinction between the way Hermione and Paulina are able to speak so persuasively, and the way in which Leontes.

He doesn't really wax poetic except when he's insane. So in any case, yeah, Hermione even has to supply.

39:21 Erin: She even has to supply his speech. They have this whole. What's strange about what Hermione says here is it's a kind of imaginary conversation, or she's sort of speaking for him, quoting him in advance of himself. She's. She says to Leontes, you surcharge him too coldly. Tell him you are sure. All in Bohemia as well say this to him. He's beat from his best ward, she's instructing him. And then she has this whole kind of hypothetical conversation carried out again by proxy, where she says to tell he longs to see his son were strong, but let him say so then, and let him go, but let him swear so, and he shall not stay, you know.

So she has this whole imaginary conversation between the two men which she carries out. So it's as if she's. Yeah, well, as if she is harboring their relationship within her. Her pregnancy of speech here is almost like the love child of Polixenes and Leontes, for which she is the surrogate. She's having this imaginary exchange between them in which she also says lots of interesting things about.

40:25 Wes: Yeah, let's go over, like, the. She has some really interesting. How is it she persuades Polixenes to stay? It's fascinating. It's absolutely fascinating the way she does it. She starts out by teasing Leontes that he's not being passionate enough. Right. You charge him too coldly. And then she says to Polixenes, well, you're not. You're not being honest about why you're not leaving. It's really. It. If anything, it's because you miss your son. It's not because you're worried something bad's gonna happen. You just miss your son. It's not fear. It's love.

And if that's true, then you. I'm gonna make you say it. If you say it, if you admit to that love, then we'll force you to leave. We'll thwack you out of here. However she says it, and there's a little bit, it seems to me, of maybe a bit of a challenge to his masculinity or something like that. But then she moves into. She bargains with him. This is like the different stages of grief, I guess. Right. She moves into the bargaining stage, where she says, okay, well, if you just stay an extra month or stay a little longer, I will let Leontes stay.

It's almost like a mom. And these are like overnights. Right. Pajama parties. When Leontes goes to visit you, I'll let him stay an extra month. And then she has this afterthought, which is another point where I think Leonte's suspicion is aroused. And we can talk about that. She has an afterthought. Oh, doesn't mean I don't love you, Leontes, as much as a lady should love her. Lord. Didn't mean to diss you with that remark. It's not like I want you to be away so I can. So Mama can drink wine at home.

42:10 Erin: Get with the pool boy.

42:12 Wes: Yeah, yeah. And then she gets into this flirtatious yes and no battle. Actually, we don't. I have two more points that she makes, but I don't want to just keep speaking. If you want to jump in here. I think there are two more elements to her persuasion, but, yeah, go ahead.

42:29 Erin: Sure. In this verily section, because I have something to say.

42:31 Wes: Yes. The verily. The back. And so. Yeah, go ahead with the Verily section.

42:36 Erin: Yeah. Prior to that, she fill. What I really like about to tell he longs to see his son more strong is that she fills the vacancy of the throne with his son.

42:46 Wes: Right.

42:47 Erin: So she puts the sun in there. The breeds in my absence becomes. No, you missed your son. He's there in your absence.

42:52 Wes: Ha.

42:53 Erin: Right. The sons are a problem, I think. And then when we have, we'll thwack him hence with distaffs. This is another thing. I was really interested in this word distaff. So this is a stick used for spinning wool. This is like a. This is an association with female artistry, classical association, obviously, going back to ancient Greece. And so there is something aggressive about this, in a way. It's like a female phallus. There's something aggressive about this desire to send him back to his own family, his own concerns, which. Which I think is related to a desire to send him back also to his wife, to his own.

She's saying, let's break up this frat party. You know, go home to. To your own own throne and your own problems. I think that maybe what's been going on here, this is my hint, is that whatever has soured is like a frat party that's gone on for too long. While he's had access to Hermione, in the meantime, Polixenes has had access. So there's a tension which is going to come out in a bit. And this kind of prefigures that. And I don't want to skip ahead of you between this idea of fraternal love and love of a woman. Right. And so I think that she's.

I think that's in play here, but I won't go there yet. So let's look at this verily thing. She's teasing him for using this word verily again. She's like, as I love what you've suggested, that there's this word associative nature of speech here. She's doing that explicitly, right? He says the word verily, and she calls him a verily and says, you put me off with limber vows, which. Limber here means feeble. But to put off a limb reminds me of this branching idea, right? That he's branching away from her in speech. He's kind of trying to outmaneuver her or get away from the position in which she's trapped him.

Anyway, you keep going. You wanted to say something about this.

44:57 Wes: Yeah, Well, I think it's. First of all, it's a very flirtatious kind of little battle that they have where she says, you'll stay. No, madam, Nay, but you will. I may not. Verily. So, yes, you will Stay. No, I won't. Yes, you will. No, I won't. So the verily is like. She calls it a limber vow. Later on she calls it an oath. And the essence of this part of the argument is to say that oaths can always be countered by an equal and opposite oath. You can say, no, I really have to go. And the other person can say, no, I really need you to stay. Verily.

So this again points. Yeah, exactly. This again points to what I put in my notes is the impotence of mental states, like the impotence of niceties, like. Thanks. Right. The impotence of an oath to really do anything. It's not actual physical necessity. It doesn't. Right. So if someone, if. If a door is locked and I can't get out, I can't get through it. That's physical necessity. Verily, I really can't get out, but I feel anxious, therefore I want to go home. That's not necessity. That's not. That's. You could call it psychological necessity, maybe, except that we could always make a different choice.

So she's pointing to the fact that what he's representing as this ultimate sort of necessity in fact is not. And that can be revealed by simply proffering an equals, an opposite oath. And she even says that a lady's oath is just as potent as a lord's. Uses that word, potent. But what she's really saying is just as impotent as a lord's. They're meaningless, just like, thanks, they're nothings and reality is something else. And then she continues that. That dive into reality and actual physical necessity by talking about imprisonment. If he were imprisoned, then yes, that's a.

Verily. That's what verily really amounts to. Verily, you won't be able to leave. And, and doing so, she trans. She gets. Puts this. She creates this great juxtaposition between being a guest, the one who owes thanks, and being a prisoner, the one who has to pay fees when they leave. I guess they made prisoners in England, right, pay for their stay. So thanks get transformed into something a bit more concrete, which is to say money. And in doing that, I think that this is the masterful thing she does. She can allay some of his anxiety by saying this is not at least giving him the idea that your concept of necessity is flawed.

You feel like you have to leave. But actual necessity would involve this imprisonment. And in a way, you don't have the choice. You can leave the choice up to me. You're going to be my prisoner or your guest. Choose. And it's all playful. Of course, he's not literally going to take him prisoner, but it's a containing function. It can alleviate anxiety by giving him the idea that it's not his impulse that he's acting on. And so therefore any omnipotence of thought involving his ideas affecting going back to Bohemia and affecting reality and doing something bad, that is alleviated a little bit as well, because it becomes her impulse that's at stake.

48:50 Erin: That's great. No, that's wonderful. I think too. Yeah, I love this. The problem, I suppose is that is that Leontes is overhearing this and so this is all going to become. This all sounds, though very suspicious even. So she's allaying his concerns. And she's right. So she's doing all these things that you're describing. But also, so just as in this previous chunk of speech that we've gotten from her, she's having a proxy conversation between Leontes and Polixenes here with this verily speech, she moves into this quoting of a conversation between herself and Polixenes.

So now it's the two of them. So rather than brokering something, you know, the reason for her speech was that she's supposed to be the proxy of Leontes. She's trying to work to get Polixenes to stay on Leontes behalf. Now she's speaking for herself, but she's again having this imaginary conversation between the two of them. So you put me off. Should you yet say, sir, no going Verily, you shall not go. A lady's verily is as potent, potent as lords. So she's. Now she's put herself into this conversation with these quoted sections. So now she's. This speech is, as you point out, that it provides this kind of containment for Polixenes.

It's also providing a kind of containment for their interchange, their intercourse. And she even puts a prisoner in there. This idea of keeping him as a prisoner, which of course we know will come up later with this. The baby is the prisoner in the womb. And then Polixenes says to be your prisoner should import offending. So we have this idea inserted into the middle of this quoted speech, the speech in which Hermione is imagining a conversation with Polixenes and she's speaking for him, putting words in his mouth. So this conversation between them, which happens inside of her, a baby is inserted into this imaginary interchange and.

Or a prisoner, I'm sorry, which is which we know later will become a baby. And then this idea of the prisoner as being someone who committed an offense by staying too long by being somewhere. This idea that, oh, if I'm here as a prisoner, then I've done something wrong by staying too long. I'm not putting this very well. Right. But the idea of an adulterous baby is in the center of what Hermione is saying. She goes 90% of the way there. And Polixenes provides the last 10% by saying that this. This idea of being a prisoner should import offending.

And what have I done to offend?

51:25 Wes: Very interesting.

51:26 Erin: Yeah.

51:27 Wes: Which is for me, less easy to commit than you to punish. Yeah.

51:31 Erin: So she doesn't want to be his jailer then, but. But his kind hostess. So I'm not forcing you to have sex with me, but, you know, I'll treat you well. No, yeah, yeah.

51:44 Wes: So, yeah, I think that's great. I didn't think of the. This parallel between the prisoner and the child imprisoned in the womb, but I think that's right. So let's leave off there for part one, Part two. I think we will just get through act one and then get through the rest of the acts in the subsequent parts.

52:07 Erin: Sounds good. Thank you, thank you.

52:19 Wes: subscribe@patreon.com subtext Also, this podcast is part of the Airwave Media podcast network. airwavemedia.com That's part of the quiz show and part offbeat trivia and Big Picture Science, which engages the public with modern science research through smart and humorous storytelling. That's airwave media.com